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M125
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Joined: 23 Oct 2010
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 Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:18 pm Post subject: Sonnox Plug-ins |
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Does anyone know if the Sonnox plug-ins in Wavelab 7 are the same as those in Sonnox Restore, i.e., same algorithms, etc?
Thanks... |
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markino
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:20 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
Have you seen the price of the Sonnox Restore?
Anyway, try and contact Sonnox to have an answer. Elements has the same suite included, you know it is around 100$, while Sonnox Restore is more than 1000 Pounds. You do the math!
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Timo Wildenhain
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Joined: 04 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:07 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
of course the Plug-Ins included in WaveLab 7 are not EXACTLY the same as the 1400 € "Restore"
package. The WaveLab 7 Sonnox Plug-Ins are a "smaller" version. So yes, they are related to
"Restore" but they don't offer all functionalities.
Thanks,
Timo Wildenhain
Product Marketing Manager |
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M125
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Joined: 23 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks very much for the quick responses. Clearly there is a price differential. Just trying to get a sense of how close they might be - reference points. I have WL7 am comparing the Sonnox plug-ins to iZotope rx2. I may also purchase it. |
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TTOZ
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:16 am Post subject: |
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A huge omission of "audition mode" in all the plugins so you can hear precisely what your removing. for ultra precise work this makes them worthless. what a shame.
would have bought elements for that alone.
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John Reid
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:53 am Post subject: |
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The competition here is clearly RX2. Whether the spectrum editor in WL7 can somehow be combined with the noise reduction technology of Sonnox is a question for future WaveLab 7 updates. The Photoshop-like editing of spectral elements in RX2 is a clear winner at the moment.
The Sonnox plugins in WL7 are very good, but the omission of a preview button (to hear what you're filtering out) is a cripple too far.
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bob99
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:40 am Post subject: |
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You can preview fairly easily. It's just not a one-button thing.
1. Before adding the plugin in the montage, duplicate the track.
2. Invert the phase on the second track.
3. Add the plugin to track 1, and play both tracks together while adjusting the plugin on track 1.
This should get you monitor ONLY of what's being removed.
The only good thing about this is that it lets you compare the Sonnox plugins to other plugins that never had Preview, like the Steinberg Denoiser (in the Legacy folder). I think the Sonnox Declicker and Decrackler seem to be doing a great job of what they're supposed to do, but using the Sonnox Denoiser for dehissing really seems to take a bite into most of the program if left in Adapt mode. Getting a good Freeze seems to help immensely. The Denoiser almost seems like it's broke in straight Adapt mode.
The Steinberg Denoiser seems pretty ok either way (auto or freeze). |
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TTOZ
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Posts: 418
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| bob99 wrote: | You can preview fairly easily. It's just not a one-button thing.
1. Before adding the plugin in the montage, duplicate the track.
2. Invert the phase on the second track.
3. Add the plugin to track 1, and play both tracks together while adjusting the plugin on track 1.
This should get you monitor ONLY of what's being removed.
The only good thing about this is that it lets you compare the Sonnox plugins to other plugins that never had Preview, like the Steinberg Denoiser (in the Legacy folder). I think the Sonnox Declicker and Decrackler seem to be doing a great job of what they're supposed to do, but using the Sonnox Denoiser for dehissing really seems to take a bite into most of the program if left in Adapt mode. Getting a good Freeze seems to help immensely. The Denoiser almost seems like it's broke in straight Adapt mode.
The Steinberg Denoiser seems pretty ok either way (auto or freeze). |
that method doesnt work in logic using the izotope plugins... which in theory, it should
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Vocalpoint
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| John Reid wrote: | The competition here is clearly RX2. Whether the spectrum editor in WL7 can somehow be combined with the noise reduction technology of Sonnox is a question for future WaveLab 7 updates. The Photoshop-like editing of spectral elements in RX2 is a clear winner at the moment.
The Sonnox plugins in WL7 are very good, but the omission of a preview button (to hear what you're filtering out) is a cripple too far. |
As a new RX2 owner - if restoration etc is your thing....use WL to simply capture the audio and move everything to RX2. No contest. Not even any discussion
Using WL7 for restoration - especially for trying to audition what it is you want to do is near impossible. Your right hand will give out with all the clicking before you get anything done...after much discussion here - I tried to do a single track of audio (Vinyl) restoration a week or two ago in WL - and simply gave up. It is truly abyssal for this sort of work flow. Right after that session I purchased RX2...and I couldn't be happier.
And with no audition capability whatsoever - I still fail to see what the big deal is with the Sonnox plugins. I can't even tell if they work or not...
VP
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TTOZ
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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Well of course you need to use your ears also.. and if a file is full of clicks you can see if it's removing them or not.....
But it's just essential imo to be able to finetune in audition mode how it's affecting the source material... so yes overall very disappointing cause they are actually quality tools, so it's as if they crippled this important feature specifically on purpose.
Rx2 denoiser ain't all that, IMO.. I am finding the powercore denoiser and audition 4 beta to be superior.... however rx2 does do clicks and crackle the best of them all...
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Arjan P
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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This is really apples and oranges. Sonnox Restore: € 1400,-; Izotope RX2: € 349,-; Izotope RX2 Adv: € 1199,-. WL7 full version: € 599,-; WL7 update from WL6: € 99,-.
Yes, maybe the Sonnox version in WL7 loses out compared to RX2, but even the lesser version of it is more than half the price of the full WL7. And therefor RX2 is no competition indeed.
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Luck, Arjan
_________________ << WL 6.1 (and 7), Cubase 5.5, XPpro SP3, PentiumD-2.8G, PX-880SA >>
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chase
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Posts: 429
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| TTOZ wrote: | | bob99 wrote: | You can preview fairly easily. It's just not a one-button thing.
1. Before adding the plugin in the montage, duplicate the track.
2. Invert the phase on the second track.
3. Add the plugin to track 1, and play both tracks together while adjusting the plugin on track 1.
This should get you monitor ONLY of what's being removed.
The only good thing about this is that it lets you compare the Sonnox plugins to other plugins that never had Preview, like the Steinberg Denoiser (in the Legacy folder). I think the Sonnox Declicker and Decrackler seem to be doing a great job of what they're supposed to do, but using the Sonnox Denoiser for dehissing really seems to take a bite into most of the program if left in Adapt mode. Getting a good Freeze seems to help immensely. The Denoiser almost seems like it's broke in straight Adapt mode.
The Steinberg Denoiser seems pretty ok either way (auto or freeze). |
that method doesnt work in logic using the izotope plugins... which in theory, it should |
Has anyone tried bob99's suggestion (invert and sum)? Not very convenient, perhaps, but does it actually work? |
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S-EH
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
There is a way with compare wavs that works
1. original wav
2. processed wav
3. compare wavs with the Files Compare under Analysis menu
create a Delta track actually what is processed 1 and 2 = 3 or the differens !
I'm sure PG can give insight how it works 
regards S-EH
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S-EH
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Joined: 06 Jan 2005
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
There is a way with compare wavs that works
1. original wav
2. processed wav
3. compare wav with the Files Compare under Analysis menu
create a Delta track actually what is processed 1+2 = 3 or the differens !
I'm sure PG can give insight how it works
regards S-EH
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PC & Mac, WL 7.01, 6.1.1, Cubase 5.5.2, 4.5.2, RME Fireface 800, Digi 96/8 PAD, UAD-1, Plextor Premium, PX-810 SA and Sony DRU-500A etc |
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PG
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Posts: 3396
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, this works. There is a switch to invert the phase of a clip, use this.
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Philippe |
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markino
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Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Posts: 97
Location: Baratti, Italy
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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In Elements you can apply ToolsOne on a clip to reverse the phase of both channels and Sonnox Denoiser/Declicker on the other clip!
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Vocalpoint
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Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 2120
Location: Calgary, Alberta
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Arjan P wrote: | | And therefor RX2 is no competition indeed. |
Until you try to actually use the Sonnox plugins - IN Wavelab and want to hear/compare what how my imminent repair will impact the source material. 600 dollars, 6 dollars or 6000 dollars...if I cannot audition a change "on the fly" BEFORE I make it...the plugin/program in question has little value....
Perhaps you could walk me thru exactly how it is that you remove clicks/pops from source material using Sonnox and Wavelab so I can better understand this - but believe me - I tried everything to make this happen and still cannot. If my only recourse is to set a few sliders and then run my entire file thru the Sonnox plugin suite - thereby permanently destroying parts of the file that I may not want to have effected - no thanks.
RX2 makes individual click repair simple, instantaneous and reversible. That I cannot put a price on.
VP
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PG
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Posts: 3396
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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>>individual click repair simple
There is a tool dedicated to that in WaveLab, This works well, and you don't need Sonnox for this.
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Philippe |
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Vocalpoint
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| PG wrote: | >>individual click repair simple
There is a tool dedicated to that in WaveLab, This works well, and you don't need Sonnox for this. |
I understand that and it is actually quite good. But if I want options? Like other plugins?
This gets me thinking to what the point is including the Sonnox suite if one cannot use them with the kind of precision this built-in WL tool affords.
I guess others must be okay with bulk applying a Sonnox effect to their entire file? I couldn't work like that....
VP
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Arjan P
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Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Vocalpoint wrote: | | Until you try to actually use the Sonnox plugins - IN Wavelab and want to hear/compare what how my imminent repair will impact the source material. |
I tried hiss removal from cassette tape: Two ears and a plugin on/off button are working great. I haven't really gotten into WL7 yet (and won't for a while) - and yes, hearing only the removed audio would be perfect - but for the € 99,- I paid I really like what it is. I'm not saying everyone should feel the same way, but it's not fair to blame a € 599,- full editor for not offering € 1400,- (restoration only) features.
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Luck, Arjan
_________________ << WL 6.1 (and 7), Cubase 5.5, XPpro SP3, PentiumD-2.8G, PX-880SA >>
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Vocalpoint
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Arjan P wrote: | | I'm not saying everyone should feel the same way, but it's not fair to blame a € 599,- full editor for not offering € 1400,- (restoration only) features. |
Well - the editor is great for capturing the source material (and the click repair tools are well done) but due to it's implementation for focused "spot" processing - it's not an option for any of my restoration work. Applying the plug-ins to the whole file (and having to deal with the master section every time) is just too time consuming and confusing.
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bob99
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Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Vocalpoint wrote: | | Arjan P wrote: | | And therefor RX2 is no competition indeed. |
Until you try to actually use the Sonnox plugins - IN Wavelab and want to hear/compare what how my imminent repair will impact the source material. 600 dollars, 6 dollars or 6000 dollars...if I cannot audition a change "on the fly" BEFORE I make it...the plugin/program in question has little value....
Perhaps you could walk me thru exactly how it is that you remove clicks/pops from source material using Sonnox and Wavelab so I can better understand this - but believe me - I tried everything to make this happen and still cannot. If my only recourse is to set a few sliders and then run my entire file thru the Sonnox plugin suite - thereby permanently destroying parts of the file that I may not want to have effected - no thanks.
RX2 makes individual click repair simple, instantaneous and reversible. That I cannot put a price on.
VP |
Vocalpoint,
It seems you're sold on RX2 and that's great. It must be a wonderful product and I've downloaded the demo to check it out (but haven't had time to use it yet). It would be great if the Sonnox plugins had Preview, but they don't. My tests using the Sonnox Declicker and my audition method showed to me anyway that that particular plugin is very transparent when just used with the default settings. Listening to what's being removed on various program material indicated to me that the plugin wasn't touching anything it shouldn't, and that applying it on an entire file would have no effect on parts of the file where there were no clicks or crackle.
The other plugins, I don't know. In both the Sonnox Denoiser and Debuzzer, when used in straight Adapt mode, and auditioning only what's being removed, they seemed to take out a big chunk of the Program Material. But getting a freeze of just tape hiss using the Denoiser seemed to solve that pretty well. And then using the plugin in Freeze mode.
The one Preview test I was able to do with iZotope RX2 denoise/dehiss in default straight Auto mode showed it was also taking a chunk of Program out, but I'm sure that would also easily improve with tweaking.
For dehissing, try the old Steinberg Denoiser in my Preview mode. For Auto mode, tt seems to be the least destructive of all.
Hopefully they'll put Preview into the Sonnox Plugins (and integrate spectral?) so this won't be an issue anymore. |
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Vocalpoint
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| bob99 wrote: | | It would be great if the Sonnox plugins had Preview, but they don't. My tests using the Sonnox Declicker and my audition method showed to me anyway that that particular plugin is very transparent when just used with the default settings. Listening to what's being removed on various program material indicated to me that the plugin wasn't touching anything it shouldn't, and that applying it on an entire file would have no effect on parts of the file where there were no clicks or crackle. |
Well - I am not so much anti-Sonnox as I am anti-workflow in Wavelab. I simply need to identify a patch of noise in a file...highlight that section and apply something to it (or back out of it). And it seems that I have to open the Master Section or another batch of dialogs to get the plugin to apply. I cannot simply move in a linear fashion and "repair" as I go. So how exactly do I use Sonnox or any plugin for that matter for "spot" processing.
Can you describe your workflow? How do you process your files?
VP
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S-EH
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Posts: 2178
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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Don't forget Spectrum Editor here !
regards S-EH
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bob99
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Posts: 59
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Vocalpoint wrote: | | So how exactly do I use Sonnox or any plugin for that matter for "spot" processing. VP |
I agree. It's not easy. I normally use Wavelab's Error Detection and Correction or the Waveform Restorer for declicking. I think the Error Detection and Correction tool is genius. |
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Lutz Rippe
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Posts: 574
Location: Hamburg, Germany
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Vocalpoint wrote: | | So how exactly do I use Sonnox or any plugin for that matter for "spot" processing. |
Here is an example for the use of a declicker for "spot" processing:
1. Put the plugin in the master section
2. Make your selection
3. Adjust the parameters of the plugin
4. Open the render dialog and select "selection" and "replace" and maybe "crossfade at transitions", (untick not to use the master section in the processed audio file, because you want to contninue with following spots) and render. These settings stay automatically for your next spot, so for any following spot just press "A" (to open render dialog") and "enter".
I have to add: the sonnox declicker obviously adds a short section of silence at the end of the selection, so it can't be used this way. The Steinberg declicker works like this and my Algorithmix also.
Alternatively you can use the Montage:
1. Put you file into the Audio Montage
2. Make your selection and make a new clip from it ("1" on the numbers pad to place cursor on the beginning of the selection and the press "s" to cut / "2" on the numbers pad goes to the end of the selection, then press "s" again")
3. Select your effect as clip effect and choose your settings
4. Maybe make a short crossfade at the clip boarders to avoid clicks after rendering
5. Then choose the next spot and do the same
6. When all spots are turned to clips and plugins are tweaked press "A" to open the render dialog and render the whole montage to a new audio file.
That is how I would do it. Hope it helps...
Lutz
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S-EH
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I have to add: the sonnox declicker obviously adds a short section of silence at the end of the selection, |
I think PG has confirmed this bug and fix for 7.01,
the info is somewhere here in this forum
regards S-EH
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Vocalpoint
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Posts: 2120
Location: Calgary, Alberta
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Lutz Rippe wrote: | | Vocalpoint wrote: | | So how exactly do I use Sonnox or any plugin for that matter for "spot" processing. |
Here is an example for the use of a declicker for "spot" processing:
1. Put the plugin in the master section
2. Make your selection
3. Adjust the parameters of the plugin
4. Open the render dialog and select "selection" and "replace" and maybe "crossfade at transitions", (untick not to use the master section in the processed audio file, because you want to contninue with following spots) and render. These settings stay automatically for your next spot, so for any following spot just press "A" (to open render dialog") and "enter".
I have to add: the sonnox declicker obviously adds a short section of silence at the end of the selection, so it can't be used this way. The Steinberg declicker works like this and my Algorithmix also.
Alternatively you can use the Montage:
1. Put you file into the Audio Montage
2. Make your selection and make a new clip from it ("1" on the numbers pad to place cursor on the beginning of the selection and the press "s" to cut / "2" on the numbers pad goes to the end of the selection, then press "s" again")
3. Select your effect as clip effect and choose your settings
4. Maybe make a short crossfade at the clip boarders to avoid clicks after rendering
5. Then choose the next spot and do the same
6. When all spots are turned to clips and plugins are tweaked press "A" to open the render dialog and render the whole montage to a new audio file.
That is how I would do it. Hope it helps...
Lutz |
Lutz,
Thank you for the details. I sort of made a half-handed attempt at using the first method - but I see not ability to audition the change or back out of it - is there a way to do that? The second method just seems to be a super convoluted way to go about this and one I would not use.
I think I have a decent work flow down now where I will stick with capture (I use 96/24 files) in WL and use the Error Detection tool to take care of the big obvious problems and then move the file to RX2 for the detailed "spot" work. I just cannot see myself having the patience to attempt a whole album worth of restoration using the above methods. I tried a single track using method one a few weeks back and after a hour I gave up
Thanks again for sharing your workflow...I do appreciate it.
VP
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bob99
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, thanks Lutz. I didn't know you could do a Replace in a Master Section Render, or never noticed it. |
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dantarbill
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Arjan P wrote: | This is really apples and oranges. Sonnox Restore: € 1400,-; Izotope RX2: € 349,-; Izotope RX2 Adv: € 1199,-. WL7 full version: € 599,-; WL7 update from WL6: € 99,-.
Yes, maybe the Sonnox version in WL7 loses out compared to RX2, but even the lesser version of it is more than half the price of the full WL7. And therefor RX2 is no competition indeed. |
For the most part, I use RX (and now RX2) simply because the spectrum display is a whole lot easier to "read" than the one in WL7. I upgraded from WL4 to WL7 with the hope that I wouldn't have to use two different tools to get my work done. It turns out that the "red on blue" spectrum display in WL7 gives far less information than the one in the RX host app...so I mainly use RX just to see where markers need to go. Now that I've dealt with most of my noise problems at the source...I rarely end up using the RX noise removal tools (which ARE excellent by the way). |
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